So I've had this unit a few weeks now... I haven't yet got around to trying it out in a live performance situation so I can't speak to its practical abilities and limitations in that respect, but I've sort of got a handle on what it will and won't do and how to operate it (except for the MIDI part, I don't use MIDI being too much of a Luddite and general technophobe myself)
I actually like this piece of gear, although when I begin to list its limations I'm not sure why I like it... well, I haven't owned or used any kind of live looper since I had a Repeater, so it's good to have one again, but I keep comparing it to the Repeater and finding it deficient on many counts:
* Working with tempo: Unlike the Repeater, the 2880 doesn't have any kind of beat detection, NOR does it even have a tap tempo button, which means that if you are trying to make a loop from a prerecorded CD (drumbeat, four-bar chord progression, whatever) it is extremely difficult to hit the button at the exact beginning and end of the bar so you have an even loop that doesn't end early or late i.e. off the beat - The 2880 DOES have a 'quantize button' that can automatically end the loop at the exact end of the bar, but ONLY if the bar is in 4/4 and if the beat of the source material is synched to the 2880's imprecisely adjustable on-board tempo... Moreover, the tempo setup is inflexible in that the slider goes from 30 to 240 BPM in steps (basically the tempo slider doubles as a pitch slider which varies the pitch in semitone intervals from 2 octaves down to 2 octaves up while simultaneously altering the speed of the loop, just as you would by altering the rpm of a tape loop)... which brings me to Rick's point: unlike the Repeater, you have no INDEPENDENT control of pitch and speed of the loop... bummer - And if you record a loop at one pitch and tempo and then want to record another track at a different pitch and tempo setting, then the playback of the original loop shifts to the new tempo/pitch setting as you record the new loop: so if you wanted to create a bass line by doubling the pitch setting during record, you'd have to listen to the original loop at double pitch and tempo while recording, and then switch back to the original setting (which would return your original loop to the normal setting, and make your second loop one octave lower and half-speed)...
* Unlike the Repeater, this doesn't have an external effects send/return circuit, so forget about putting effects on one loop and not on another... I run the 2880 from the effects send on my mixer and back into a channel strip so I can send the loops thru another effects processor, but it has to be applied to all the loops coming from the 2880...
* The built-in metronome is cool for recording loops but useless for live looping unless you want to have the metronome clicking as live accompaniment to your performance (it doesn't record the click track, of course, but it outputs it thru the main outs, instead of just thru a headphone jack for example)...
* If you're planning on saving loops you'll need to buy plenty of compact flash cards to store each set of loops on, since you can only put one loop on each card (one loop meaning four tracks and a two-channel stereo mixdown track) - You can back up loops from the cards to your computer and reload them later onto separate cards to bring to your gig, like if you've got thirty loops you want to keep just back 'em up and only keep five or ten cards on hand... So, no use getting one of these huge 2GB CF cards that with lots of storage unless you're planning on recording 60-minute loops (in other words, using this unit as a four-track recorder with removable drives, as opposed to using it as a looper): a 128MB card holds a four-minute loop (that is, four tracks with unlimited overdubs on each track + a stereo mixdown track) which is as long a loop as I'm likely to need...
On the more positive side of things, I like the footswitch, which offers more control options than the three-button foot pedal option for the Repeater - The 2880 pedal has six buttons (new loop, play, record, octave down, reverse, and track select)... And it does true stereo looping like the beloved Repeater... It has a punch-in button so you can fix one little part of a loop without rerecording the whole track or overdub...
Also I like that when recording a new track after recording your original loop, you can begin the recording at any point in the playback (not just at the beginning) of the first loop, which enables you to easily add some cool counterpoint and syncopation...
A big plus is that I think this model sounds better than the Repeater, which makes it better for in-studio applications: the noise floor is lower, there is none of that chirping with compact flash card loops, and no electromagnetic interference like with the Repeater which used to cause an annoying whine in my powered monitors whenever it was powered on... However, I did notice some faint clicking that would start to build up on prerecorded loops during playback (this was only obvious on loops with silent segments and when listening on headphones)...
I like the mixdown function which enables you to record loops on all four tracks, then do a live mixdown onto a separate stereo channel, manipulating the faders and pan knobs during mixdown... And I like how the track faders double as feedback control when overdubbing onto a single track (adjusting the amount the volume of each overdub diminishes with every repeat)...
In sum, I paid about $550 for the 2880 and foot pedal (foot control sold separately) including shipping, and that's rock bottom pricing from www.instrumentpro.com... if you could find a used Electrix Repeater for not much more than that (wish I hadn't sold mine, stupid me) I'd say get a Repeater, unless you're using it for mainly studio applications and can't deal with the Repeater's noise issues...
I might have more to say when I've more thoroughly explored using this model in live settings (lately I'm having more fun with my new Lexicon MX200 processor, which outperforms my previous Lexicon MPX550 at half the price), but that's it for now...
I actually like this piece of gear, although when I begin to list its limations I'm not sure why I like it... well, I haven't owned or used any kind of live looper since I had a Repeater, so it's good to have one again, but I keep comparing it to the Repeater and finding it deficient on many counts:
* Working with tempo: Unlike the Repeater, the 2880 doesn't have any kind of beat detection, NOR does it even have a tap tempo button, which means that if you are trying to make a loop from a prerecorded CD (drumbeat, four-bar chord progression, whatever) it is extremely difficult to hit the button at the exact beginning and end of the bar so you have an even loop that doesn't end early or late i.e. off the beat - The 2880 DOES have a 'quantize button' that can automatically end the loop at the exact end of the bar, but ONLY if the bar is in 4/4 and if the beat of the source material is synched to the 2880's imprecisely adjustable on-board tempo... Moreover, the tempo setup is inflexible in that the slider goes from 30 to 240 BPM in steps (basically the tempo slider doubles as a pitch slider which varies the pitch in semitone intervals from 2 octaves down to 2 octaves up while simultaneously altering the speed of the loop, just as you would by altering the rpm of a tape loop)... which brings me to Rick's point: unlike the Repeater, you have no INDEPENDENT control of pitch and speed of the loop... bummer - And if you record a loop at one pitch and tempo and then want to record another track at a different pitch and tempo setting, then the playback of the original loop shifts to the new tempo/pitch setting as you record the new loop: so if you wanted to create a bass line by doubling the pitch setting during record, you'd have to listen to the original loop at double pitch and tempo while recording, and then switch back to the original setting (which would return your original loop to the normal setting, and make your second loop one octave lower and half-speed)...
* Unlike the Repeater, this doesn't have an external effects send/return circuit, so forget about putting effects on one loop and not on another... I run the 2880 from the effects send on my mixer and back into a channel strip so I can send the loops thru another effects processor, but it has to be applied to all the loops coming from the 2880...
* The built-in metronome is cool for recording loops but useless for live looping unless you want to have the metronome clicking as live accompaniment to your performance (it doesn't record the click track, of course, but it outputs it thru the main outs, instead of just thru a headphone jack for example)...
* If you're planning on saving loops you'll need to buy plenty of compact flash cards to store each set of loops on, since you can only put one loop on each card (one loop meaning four tracks and a two-channel stereo mixdown track) - You can back up loops from the cards to your computer and reload them later onto separate cards to bring to your gig, like if you've got thirty loops you want to keep just back 'em up and only keep five or ten cards on hand... So, no use getting one of these huge 2GB CF cards that with lots of storage unless you're planning on recording 60-minute loops (in other words, using this unit as a four-track recorder with removable drives, as opposed to using it as a looper): a 128MB card holds a four-minute loop (that is, four tracks with unlimited overdubs on each track + a stereo mixdown track) which is as long a loop as I'm likely to need...
On the more positive side of things, I like the footswitch, which offers more control options than the three-button foot pedal option for the Repeater - The 2880 pedal has six buttons (new loop, play, record, octave down, reverse, and track select)... And it does true stereo looping like the beloved Repeater... It has a punch-in button so you can fix one little part of a loop without rerecording the whole track or overdub...
Also I like that when recording a new track after recording your original loop, you can begin the recording at any point in the playback (not just at the beginning) of the first loop, which enables you to easily add some cool counterpoint and syncopation...
A big plus is that I think this model sounds better than the Repeater, which makes it better for in-studio applications: the noise floor is lower, there is none of that chirping with compact flash card loops, and no electromagnetic interference like with the Repeater which used to cause an annoying whine in my powered monitors whenever it was powered on... However, I did notice some faint clicking that would start to build up on prerecorded loops during playback (this was only obvious on loops with silent segments and when listening on headphones)...
I like the mixdown function which enables you to record loops on all four tracks, then do a live mixdown onto a separate stereo channel, manipulating the faders and pan knobs during mixdown... And I like how the track faders double as feedback control when overdubbing onto a single track (adjusting the amount the volume of each overdub diminishes with every repeat)...
In sum, I paid about $550 for the 2880 and foot pedal (foot control sold separately) including shipping, and that's rock bottom pricing from www.instrumentpro.com... if you could find a used Electrix Repeater for not much more than that (wish I hadn't sold mine, stupid me) I'd say get a Repeater, unless you're using it for mainly studio applications and can't deal with the Repeater's noise issues...
I might have more to say when I've more thoroughly explored using this model in live settings (lately I'm having more fun with my new Lexicon MX200 processor, which outperforms my previous Lexicon MPX550 at half the price), but that's it for now...
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Sun, September 24, 2006 - 8:37 PMShit... I just discovered something I really HATE about this foot controller: the buttons on it make a LOUD click when you press them, so that means when you use the foot controller to record a loop from a miked instrument and the mic is anywhere near the foot pedal you get a nice loud click at the end of each loop cycle during playback... lovely... I guess that wouldn't bother electric guitarists or keyboard players, but for me, if I want to loop a bass clarinet part and the mic is about 18" above the floor to catch the sound from the instrument it will also catch the click of the foot pedal... So now what do I do, find a technician to open up the unit and replace the buttons or put some kind of damping device on each one?... I hadn't noticed this before because I was using the buttons on the 2880, which are relatively silent, compared to the sturdy but noisy buttons on the foot pedal... -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Mon, September 25, 2006 - 11:54 AMA common failing for footswitch controllers, which becomes even more of an issue with looping. Manufactuers don't really take into consideration that many looping musicians are performing in "low volume" situations and that mechanical switch noise is a no-no. My favorite switches are whatever Mesa uses for many of their amp switching pedalboards, which are super sturdy and don't make noise, but I'm sure they're much more expensive than the standard Mousers (for example) used on the EDP foot controller, which are also pretty quiet acoustically. -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Mon, September 25, 2006 - 2:23 PMHmmm, well yeah, I'm guessing these devices are marketed for the majority of users who play electric instruments so they don''t think too much about that... I had been experimenting around with the 2880 using the controls on the main unit so I didn't know this pedal noise was gonna be an issue till yesterday (if the buttons on the main unit are as quiet as they are, they oughta be able to make them so on the foot controller)... Granted, sturdiness is an issue (I've read complaints about how breakable those EDP foot controllers are), and these buttons on the EH look super sturdy to withstand pounding... but apart from the loud mechanical click they make (once when you press and engage the switch and once again when you lift your foot up), they are HARD to press, and I'd even prefer something with a lighter touch...
Anyway, I called EH today and I'm supposed to call back tomorrow and talk with the tech guy who designed or built the footswitch... either I figure a way to install dampers on these switches or have them replaced with quiet ones, or this sucker is going on eBay, and I start shopping for another looper... -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Tue, September 26, 2006 - 12:47 PMYou can break anything if you step on it hard and often enough, and back in the day I've broken the sturdy switches on footpedals also, but there are no cheap, sturdy, quiet switches that don't require a firm touch. In this case I think you'll have to drop the "cheap" requirement, relative to say an EDP switch (which are a dollar or so) and go to something that probably costs about five dollars (my guess). I saw your post on LD where Mesa wouldn't tell you the supplier, but an electronics supply shop should be able to hook you up.
On the other hand, I've been using the Mouser brand EDP swithches on hundreds of gigs a year for about three years and have yet to break one. Dirt will get into them, but that can be cleaned, and I'd view replacing footswitches as being akin to changing strings or tubes. Things are going to wear out. I'll look around and see if I can find you a source for the deluxe Mesa style switches. -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Tue, September 26, 2006 - 1:22 PMThanks a lot, Travis... one respondent on LD recommended some Radio Shack plastic footswitches that are $2.50 each... I don't mind paying $5 per switch if they are QUIET (not silent) and durable (not indestructible)... it would beat buying a Mesa pedal for $150 and ripping it apart to plunder the switches...
As regards the Mouser switches, if they are working for you and you say they're quiet enough, I don't mind giving them a shot... but I would need to know a link or product number: I looked on the Mouser site and there are 4000 matches when I search for for pushbutton switches!... -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Tue, September 26, 2006 - 2:57 PMThe footswitch part# is:
10PA005 at www.mouser.com
or
106112 at www.jameco.com
the switch is made by a company called Mountain Switch, and their part# is DS412R -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Tue, September 26, 2006 - 6:28 PMThanks again... I am going over to Lasher's Electronics in Berkeley tomorrow to see what kind of switches they might have there (probably not a big selection but at least I will be able to try out the ones they have for mechanical noise)... I'll probably end up ordering the ones you recommend from Mouser...
Went to Guitar Center today to see if they had any Mesa pedalboards so I could see what those switches are like, but they don't stock any... While there I checked out all the other pedals and footswitches they sell and all of the switches are just as noisy as the ones on the 2880... except in the pedal-style controllers they seem to have damping-designed switches under the pedals because they are almost silent ... Electro-Harmonix should've designed the foot controller with six big quiet sturdy pedals instead of six little noisy metal buttons, but they didn't (to keep production costs down, of course)... -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Tue, September 26, 2006 - 6:34 PMAnd by the way, one other thing I dislike about the 2880 compared with the Repeater is this:
The Repeater enables loop multiplication so if you record a one-bar loop and want to overdub a 4-bar loop on top of it, you can just multiply the original loop X 4 and go for it - On the 2880, you'd have to erase the original loop and start over, playing out the four repeated measures and recording it as one loop...
Jeez... why didn't E-H just buy the plans and rights to the Repeater from Electrix instead of designing an imitation that is inferior in so many ways... too bad Electrix never came back to life as they said they were gonna (you go to the Electrix site now and you can still see the announcement for all the new products coming out in 2005, including the Repeater mkII)... -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Tue, September 26, 2006 - 10:31 PMBased on what I remember of the Repeater Mk I disaster, there were problems which couldn't be overcome without a significant redesign. I believe they actually ran out of program memory as they were trying to fix the bugs in v1.0 of the software, and there was no way to expand it without redesigning the motherboard. They sank so much money into trying to finish the Repeater that it scuppered the rest of the business, then they went bankrupt and whoever's been running the show since then (maybe the same folks with more funding) appears to be inept at project management and setting customer expectations. I wouldn't be surprised if EH found them too flakey to work with, or that the estimates on fixing/updating the basic Repeater were too expensive.
On the other hand EH seems to have released two loopers now without any serious field testing from experienced looping musicians, based on the number of inexplicable features the EH-16 and 2880 shipped with. Of course, this puts them at par with Roland and Digitech, but it's frustrating. The lack of multiply in the 2880 is a super bummer for me. -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Wed, September 27, 2006 - 10:49 PMWell, I bought some new switches and installed them... they're black plastic and they cost me $2.50 each... As I stood in the store I held the switches in my hand and I clicked on them to see how loud they sound and they sounded a lot quieter than the switches that came with the unit... But now that I have tested it out with the new switches, I find they are still too loud... Part of the problem is once the switches are bolted to the metal case of the foot controller, the case acts as a resonator and amplifies the clicking... No way am I going to create music with a looping tool that places a grossly audible click at the end of each loop cycle...
I just ordered the switches you recommended from Mouser... I haven't heard how they sound, but I'll give them a shot... If it's still too loud to use for live-miked acoustic instruments, then I will just sell this whole stupid 2880 and the foot pedal and all the CF cards I bought on eBay... I'm sure some electronic looping musician could get some decent use out ot it, but I guess until I hear from someone that there is a looper with a foot controller that doesn't make noise, I am just out of luck...
I sure hope those EDP replacement switches are quiet enough to do the trick... -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 9:03 PMWell, I *thought* maybe I had found a workaround for the noisy footswitch issue... After some trial and error, it seems like the recorder only picks up the click on the original track of the loop (the so-called 'new loop', before you've made any overdubs)... so I thought I could use the punch-in feature to record over the original loop with the click, and I tried it, and it recorded a new take and the click went away! But get this:
When I record on 'punch-in' setting (punch-in is a feature not included on the footswitch, stupidly enough, you have to press the button on the main unit with your finger... whereas they put octave and reverse switches on the foot controller, not as essential as having a foot switch to punch in record, IMHO)... continuing, when I record on 'punch-in' it records a NEW ARTEFACT, and this time it's a pulsating BUZZ in time with the built-in metronome - This buzzing is clearly audible on quiet loops or loops with a segment of silence in them, annoyingly so on headphones especially - And the buzzing occurs even if you have the volume on the metronome turned all the way down to zero (and there is no way of shutting off the metronome which flashes in time with the tempo whenever you are recording or playing a loop)...
CLICKETY CLICK... BUZZ-ZZZ-ZZZ... I could see someone using the 2880 in a live performance setting if you're playing loud music and using electric instruments, but forget using it as an acoustic player in a studio setting (which is probably 75% of where I am going to be doing my looping, honestly, since I am not very good at getting gigs and consequently most of my music is amateur home recording)...
My final question is this: Is there any recommendation for a stand-alone live looping tool (no laptop or software or MIDI required) with a well-functioning foot controller, and no significant noise issues, suitable for looping live miked acoustic instruments? A looper with a quiet foot pedal and no troublesome glitches or bugs to contend with? I guess I will have to forsake the desired feature of multiple loop tracks with individually tweakable pan and fader controls, since the 2880 has failed me and I don't want to buy a used Repeater and deal with it's own legendary quirks and bugs... do I have to spend $1000 on an EDP or $1500 on a Looperlative? (in which case, I'm too poor, forget it)... Somebody already praised the Boomerang, maybe I will check that one out (I was actually almost gonna buy the Rang, till I read about the 2880 and saw all the added features I could get on the 2880 compared to the Rang for the same price)...
Which loopers have the most virtually silent foot pedal controllers, maybe if I start with that question, it will give me something to go on when I begin shopping for a replacement for the 2880 (at this point, even if the Mouser switches I have ordered can fix the footswitch noise, I'm still left with the buzzing issue which has nothing to do with the foot controller)... If I was smart to begin with, I would've found time to test this 2880 out THOROUGHLY before the 30-day return option expired... MY DUMB... -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 10:11 PMFerrara - i have been in email contact with the guy who owns the company that makes the Boomerang, and he told me their new model will be out in january. the only feature missing, for my needs (i am an acoustic-instrument looper too) is storage or some form of backup (i don't think there's midi). i believe all the other bells and whistles will be present, including undo on many levels and better sampling rate (my two main beefs with the version i have, which i'll be selling asap). -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 10:37 PMJesse, that sounds somewhat promising... at least promising enough for me to withhold any purchase decisions until January, when I will be more able to afford something, hopefully... I'll go now to the Boomerang page and see if they have an email list to get product updates and news... thanks for the tip :-)
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Sun, October 1, 2006 - 1:27 PMclick and hum.... why does every product have a caveat...
maybe I should just get the midi Boss one instead?
right now I'm doing some loopy things on my electribe by using multiple very l o n g d e l a y s ...
you _could_ wire the pedal circuits to switches outside the actual metal box, to avoid the echo?
MIDI can be great, or not so great... I mainly use it for tempo synch
multiply = copy one loop to two slots?
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Mon, October 2, 2006 - 1:25 PMWell, Travis, I got the Mountain Switches from Mouser today - Unfortunately, I won't be able to test them out, since the diameter of the switches is about 5/8" and the hole in the metal plate of the foot controller only allows for a 1/2" switch to fit in there...
I GIVE UP...
A slightly used Electro-Harmonix 2880 with foot controller + a dozen compact flash cards goes up for auction on eBay tonight... -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Mon, October 9, 2006 - 2:12 PMEH seems to be 1 for 3 when it comes to effective loopers at this point. And they still refuse to reissue the original EH-16 design. Sorry it didn't work out for you.
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Tue, October 10, 2006 - 7:39 PMthen I read elsewhere that the Boss unit is not so great either...
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Tue, October 10, 2006 - 7:58 PMI've been reading a lot of reviews on the LD pages and on Harmony Central's user reviews... I've narrowed it down to one of three models, all Boss: the RC20XL, the new RC2 or the DD20... I can easily pay for any of these with the money I regained selling the 2880... I might be interested in the new Boomerang but I don't want to wait until January or later for that to appear (and I don't necessarily want to be one of the first users to try it out and find out what's wrong with it!)... I tried out the pedals on these Boss units in the store and they are all very quiet (though the pedal throw might present timing issues)... I'm actually leaning toward the DD20, since even if i later buy a better looper I like its stereo delay features (none of the user reviews complain of any significant problems with it, and that's a big plus in my book)... the DD20 is pretty bare-bones in terms of looping abilities, but it makes up for those limitations with the delay features... -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Thu, October 12, 2006 - 10:31 AMI've had a Boomerang for years and talked to Mike Nelson several times, and personally I'll have no reservation about ordering one of the first of the Mk II units, but I understand if you don't share my confidence. He's experienced and a no bullshit sort of guy, so I don't think he's going to put out a poorly thought out beta. For a while he was offering one-off hardware mods for various features. They're very musician-oriented in their design philosophy.
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Tue, September 26, 2006 - 7:13 PMhave you tried out the MIDI synch yet?
(as a drum machine user, this is a prime issue for me)
what a shame that the Repeater is not available new. it seems like a hot item, with a market -
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Re: Electro-Harmonix 2880 Super Multi-Track Looper
Tue, September 26, 2006 - 7:15 PMI am MIDI-illiterate :-(
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